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Other Office Discussion
 Criminal Solicitor Dot Net»Other Office Discussion
Subject Topic: ATE insurance? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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phatboy
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Posted: 02 November 2009 at 10:17 | IP Logged Quote phatboy
Okay, this is just an idea but I never thought of it before and have not heard anyone else discussing it so I'm posting my (half-baked) idea here for you all to Message
criticise (or not as the case maybe).

Criminal litigation is, in effect, not much different to civil litigation in the sense that each side instructs a lawyer and (ignoring legal aid etc for a moment) agrees to pay that lawyer.  If I sue company A and win I can claim my costs back from the other side, equally they can claim costs from me if I lose.  In crime, if I defend Mr B and win then he can claim my costs back from Central Funds.

In civil litgation it is possible to take out after the event insurance to cover the costs of litigation.  So, when the judge rules against me in my action against company A I can claim back the costs from my insurance.

So, the idea is this.  Why shouldn't criminal clients (obviously I'm not talking about the junkies etc who don't know where they are let alone what insurance is), who do not qualify for legal aid, take out insurance so that they can be represented and pay they costs if they lose?

I'm not aware of any rule against this action.  I have spoken to a couple of companies and they say that they do not offer such insurance in criminal cases.  Does anybody know of anyone who might offer such insurance?

Any thoughts, views, opinions or rantings?
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2088673
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Posted: 02 November 2009 at 12:41 | IP Logged Quote 2088673

P

all true insurance involves aggregation of risks, and if the people who underwrite kindred civil law stuff are not active in the criminal sphere it is probably because
-they don't think that they can generate a big enough pool of people to set a safe [predictable] loss/premium rate; or
-the premium rate is going to be so high as to put punters off

this isn't like selling PPI on the back of personal loans.

what do they do in the USA?  if it isn't seen there.....
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leeds_lad
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Posted: 02 November 2009 at 19:36 | IP Logged Quote leeds_lad
If you were an insurance company would you risk your money on the odds of acquittal at the mags.
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phatboy
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Posted: 04 November 2009 at 10:49 | IP Logged Quote phatboy
Leeds Lad I'm disappointed at your lack of confidence in our modern, transparant and fair magistrates' court system of justice!  The mere fact that 98% (or thereabouts) of people tried in the mags are convicted means only that 98% of them are wrong 'uns.  I'm thinking that insurance companies should aim their products at the other 2%!

2088673 (I have to ask if you named yourself after a UFN?), I don't really know what you mean about selling PPI on the back of personal loans as I have to admit to being quite ignorant of the insurance system... which is no doubt why I came up with the idea.

Since you mention personal loans... what do people think of referring clients to banks (or loan-sharks) to get a loan to pay for our services?
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presuming ed
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Posted: 04 November 2009 at 15:16 | IP Logged Quote presuming ed
sounds good Phatboy, we could fill the application forms out for
them(like we do legal aid) and drive them round to the bank.
better still, how about doubling up as pawn brokers and taking a bit of
"tom" in lieu of being paid. or better still, we could just "lay on" our
services.
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midland1
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Posted: 05 November 2009 at 06:15 | IP Logged Quote midland1
I thought that that was the definition of pro bono - 'lay on'
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2088673
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Posted: 05 November 2009 at 07:34 | IP Logged Quote 2088673

p

here is a link to a PPI article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/8297680.stm

I fear that steering people towards the banks would not improve your image.

as to the 98% conviction rate figure, I thought we had concluded that this is well wide of the mark for effective trials...but the very fact that we struggle to find a reliable average figure only goes to underline the difficulties you would face.

best of luck.
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phatboy
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Posted: 12 November 2009 at 09:32 | IP Logged Quote phatboy
Presuming ed, I can't help but detect a small trace of sarcasm in your post!! ;-)

2088673, I'm not sure that PPI is the same as efter the event insurance... but then again I don't understand much about insurance if I'm honest.

Having looked into it though, I suspect that ATE is not the way forward at the moment.  But it does leave me wondering how people afford all of the civil litigation that they seem to get themselves wrapped up in?

Does anybody know how crims paid for their lawyers pre-legal aid?  Am I right in thinking that there were a lot more unrepresented defendants in trials?
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